Should A Christian Vote for a Party That Snubs God?

Don’t get too puffed up about yourself Timmy, for pride cometh before the fall. Your silly arguments are already being ignored by most readers here, and I am refuting them for the drivel they are. Your time for me to ignore you will come soon enough.
I’m betting you don’t know much if anything about the Bible and are not a spokesperson for God.
God blessing the U.S.A. or not hinges on much more than who fools elect to office, and much different also. Among those things are people like you who thump the Bible you barely know, let alone understand, if at all, trying to support your political points. Jesus said, “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s.”
As for your understanding of Mormonism and Mormons I doubt you know a Mormon personally, have read the Book of Mormon or ever gone to a Mormon worship service or place of worship. In other words you are a blowhard, taking the word of others as the basis for your half-vast opinions.
If you are old enough to vote you have a clear choice this year between a Mormon believer and an angry, bitter, evil man thoroughly-steeped in Islam and Marxism. Choose wisely, lad, choose wisely.

Wow, Timmy, lad, you’ve only “been in ministry for nearly twenty years.” I am not impressed. Which seminary did you attend? How did you attain your ordination? In what denomination?

Pending your honest, direct answers “I am [still] betting you don’t know much if anything about the Bible and are not a spokesperson for God.”

Congratulations, you just misunderstood why I tossed that Scripture pill at you, thus you mistakenly believe I “lit fire to a strawman.” Try to imagine or think of some other reason(s) I might have included in the context, “Jesus said, ‘Render unto

Caesar that which is Caesar’s.’”

“Once again, nice try [and I may still be] completely [right, not] wrong.” Your saying, “I know several Mormons,” is like someone accused of racism saying I have several black friends. Some people say having a FB account is a sin. I will only say that having “FB friends that are Mormon” is meaningless.

I have assumed nothing but rather given you an opportunity to answer doubts I had and still have about you without putting my doubts in the form of questions.

You have answered rather badly and evaded addressing my doubts about whether you have “ever gone to a Mormon worship service or place of worship.” So I still believe you are a blowhard, taking the word of others as the basis for your half-vast opinions.”

I have read the Book of Mormon more than once, studied other works about Mormons and Mormonism, been taken by Mormon friends to a Mormon Tabernacle, attended worship services with Mormon friends and served in combat with Mormons. I know Mormons, their beliefs and practices rather well, far better than you offer evidence for knowing Mormons, their beliefs and practices.

You have a lot of kids, but may not care at all for them or their futures. If you do anything to allow Obama to be re-elected you most certainly do not care for yourself, the mother(s) of your children or your children.

Next time you write I suggest you not be so pompous as to try telling me how to write, including your false charge that I made “numerous assumptions” about you. I have no intention of ever trying to prove anything about you. You are dong a fine job of proving yourself to be a religious extremist full of false pride and incapable of reasoning soundly with logic.
yourself to be a religious extremist full of false pride and incapable of reasoning soundly with logic.

Timmy responding once and for all to your several frenetic posts in which you are doing exactly the things you accuse me and others of, even more, like twisting what I and others have said to fit your warped scheme of things, thank you for saving me some time and effort. As you have made evident in your posts you have not been to seminary, are not ordained by any proper authority of any significant, legitimate denomination, don’t know much of anything about the Bible, are not a spokesperson for God, well-educated at all but are sloppy in your work and thought processes; thus are not anyone worth reading or listening to in your rants against Mormons or on any other topic as far as I can tell.
All you have proven is what a hate-filled fool you are, and that on a worldwide, public site.
I am not interested in anything you claim, and I refute, rather reject, you out of hand.
You have posted, so apparently by copying and pasting, a contrived series of statements by Mormon leaders, the most recent in the 19th Century, the 1800s. You show indications
of having been wronged in your own mind at some point in time by some Mormon(s) and have some serious axe-grinding to do with Mormons.
In many ways you remind me of the Branch Davidians’ David Koresh – a loon of the first order who led some innocents and not so innocents to gunshot, gassed and fiery deaths.
Tap dancing as you did to evade the other easy questions asked of you, you cannot or will not answer honestly or directly if you have ever gone to a Mormon worship service or place of worship. I did not see one quote from you of their current church attenders. Last time I checked lying is still a sin, one of the Big Ten.
Speaking of your lying, copy and paste, post here what you claim is my “wish to justify a false gospel and a false Jesus,” belief in what you call “the heresies of Mormonism,“ “[I]
think it’s good for the federal government to demand that a company provide certain services in its products,” “[I] just ‘hate‘ Obama” and [I] pointed out Romney does not stand on principle. (I would never say “he is not for standing on principal,” because I know principle is the right word to use there by those of us literate in English.)
Whether you like it or not the Federal government has been involved in health care for a long time, e.g., Medicare, Medicaid, the HHS Department, etc. Obama rammed through by hook and crook, all kinds of trickery Obamacare; thus the Federal government must now fix it. There is no other way. The Congress and a new Executive cannot simply repeal Obamacare and not do anything to fix the damage that has been done to the former health care system.
Romneycare is no more a blueprint for Obamacare than is TennCare or any of the other state health care programs in existence well before Obamacare was rammed down the throats of all Americans. You have learned well the squawks from the Obamaniac Parrot Squawk Book and that covers your further bashing of Romney about “no core convictions” and “support of the homosexuals.”
Borrowing one of your tricks, so, to you “Obama is just a man, that is all he is,“ you approve of and support Obama.
Quoting a bunch of old, dead Mormons is not proving a “Mormon position on [any] subject” of today or anything about Romney who you are set on hurting in favor of Obama being re-elected.
I pray for your litter of kids and the woman or women who bore them and must put up with you for a time.

In the name of Jesus, Timmy, I am calling you out as a liar and fool. If you have been to seminary or ordained by any significant denomination, name them or admit you are a liar. Not naming them you have already admitted it, so just say it plainly and clearly. It might be good for your soul.

Your hatred of Mormons is palpable. It might also be good for your soul for you to confess your hatred and start dealing with it from its root cause in you.

Your use of trite phrases is boring and reveals your low level of education and ability to use the English language, e.g. “silence … is deafening.”

You are not Bill O’Reilly, so please stop using his word, “bloviate.”

Two of your copy and paste posts, for that matter only one, were more than enough.

You lied; you said you were quoting current Mormon leaders. Now try to weasel out of that one, liar.

You assume wrongly. I am not a Mormon, have never been a Mormon and never expect to be a Mormon. So much for your charges that I make false assumptions, fool.

When I want to know what Mormons believe I will get my information from a Mormon, not from you or any other hater, thank you very much.

“Nope, never been wronged by a Mormon in my life that I know of. Don’t have an axe to grind either.” – You may be lying first to your self in the former. You are lying in the latter. Your axe grinding is just a bit evident here, fool.

You misunderstood completely or twisted for your purposes what I said bout David Koresh. It was a comment on your behaviors, not those of the Feds.

Thank you for your admission, finally, that I was absolutely right about you. You have never been to a Mormon worship service or place of worship. You rely on others for your information, but you have all manner of harsh opinions and things to say about Mormons and their worship. You are so full of crap you are blinded, deafened and made dumb by its flooding of your empty head.

I did not say any Mormon was a spokesperson for God. I told you that you were not, you lying fool. Prove you are not a lying fool: Copy and paste the exact quote where you believe I said a Mormon was a spokesperson for God, and give the time it appeared. You have failed, of course, to do this in my previous challenges to you in this thread made ridiculous by you.

I continue in prayer for your one wife and your poor children with you as their father, maybe.

Timmy, no answer is an answer, most often a no answer or for your benefit in possibly understanding – a negative answer or answer in the negative.
You sure take a lot of words and space here saying nothing of value, repeating yourself and continuing with your lying, foolish behaviors.

Let’s get these few things straight, kid. You don’t tell me anything. You are a liar and a fool. Anything you have accused me or others of, you do in spades.
Your time is up with me. I reached the point of ignoring your hateful, ignorant going to stupid posts. I continue praying for your wife and that bunch of kids you have. God help them.
I pray God forgive you for your lies, foolishness and hatefulness. Goodbye and good luck to you.

One other thing Ron, and this is how Romney works. Remember when he said he would repeal Obamacare day one? Apparently he is selling all of you guys down the river. http://news.yahoo.com/romney-says-keep-parts-obama-healthcare-law-155146420.html

Good? So you think it’s good for the federal government to demand that a company provide certain services in its products? Really? I thought government needed to get out of the way? Apparently you don’t believe that anymore than Romney does.

Oh I got it Ron. I was telling people that from the beginning. The problem is we have not been told what its replaced with, but I can assure you it will look very similar. It’s already shaping up to be that way.

Healthcare doesn’t need “fixing” at the federal level. It just doesn’t. I get it Ron. Now, could you please show us what they are replacing it with? NO you cannot. But the record is Romneycare, which was the blueprint for Obama care.

Mary the point is, what does the federal government have in telling private businesses what they must and must not offer and to whom? Isn’t Romney one of the guys claiming that government needs to get out of the way? Doesn’t he claim to want smaller government? this demonstrates he does not.

David, you go right ahead, run your mouth all you want, claim to be a Christian and reject Romney/Ryan at your own peril. You deserve another four years of Obama/Biden. By the time Obama is through with you, you might know what I and others mean, but it will be too late for you and your loved ones then.

You cannot be near as sick as I am of you lunatic Paulites willing to sacrifice the U.S.A., yourselves, if you have been allowed to reproduce, children and grandchildren for a lost cause – Ron Paul – and making a silly statement of no consequence whatsoever.Don’t forget Obama has decreed due to the problems at polls in ’08 with New Black Panthers and union thugs, those voting for Romney/Ryan vote on Nov. 6. All others vote Nov. 7.

Sorry, David, you Paulite, but I don’t need to read anything you send or recommend to me. I don’t have on blinders. I am awake, and I know plenty about politics. I am also interested in seeing the U.S.A. last a little longer, unlike you Paulites so willing to sacrifice all to make a useless, futile statement.

Davey, I expect that to take you quite a while. What you intend to laugh off is so much of you, you may disappear completely.
Right now you are going to disappear from among those to whom I respond. I may post about you if I choose, but not to you again.

Tim, I think the bottom line is that this whole thing of ignoring God and spitting in His eye is something that started decades ago, and this country is now in a real fix because of it, one evidence being our choice of presidential candidates.
(Can’t imagine what it must have been like back in the old days…”let’s see, should I go with Jefferson or Hamilton this time?”)
Actually the thing I’m still fuming about re. Romney is Romney Care — since that was implemented here in MA, my health insurnace premiums have gone up by a third, my deductible has tripled, and the waiting time for a doctor’s appointment has increased significantly (and yeah, he could have at least tried to veto the gay marriage thing on principle, even though it would have been overridden).
Believe me, I’m not enthused about November, but at least if we can get Obama out of there and get some patriots in the Congresss that will be something.

With all due disrespect for you, Timmy, if you don’t vote for Romney/Ryan you will be increasing Obama’s chances of getting re-elected along with his stalwart moron Biden and keeping in place Obama’s tyrannical, despotic, evil regime that is systematically bringing down the U.S.A.
I believe Romney knew the same-sex marriage legislation in MA would be passed by an override of his veto. He is not into the wasted effort of symbolism or pyrrhic victories as you and some other losers so apparently are.

I am a great admirer of Paul, but I prefer relying more on the teachings of and about Jesus, including those offered by Paul who wrote so much of the NT as far as we know.
Your citing Paul in your defense against what I said about the love of Jesus the Christ gets my attention in the context of your condemining Mormons for polytheism.
FYI “anathema” has a different meaning than “open and blatant lies.”

Why don’t you try actually reading the Bible and the addition the mormons read. You just might learn something, or are you affraid of actually understanding a subject you presently know nothing about.

I’ll give you a bit of history from our website:

1805 Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, is born in Sharon, Vermont.

1820 In response to his first uttered prayer, Joseph Smith
purportedly has First Vision of God the Father and Jesus (Pearl of Great
Price, “Joseph Smith – History” vv. 3, 17-19). (See 1832a, 1834d,
1835a, b, 1840b, 1842a, 1855a, 1879a.)

1827 Angel Moroni gives Smith the Golden Plates which will become the Book of Mormon (Ibid., v. 59).

1830 (a) Smith finishes translation of the Golden Plates and
publishes Book of Mormon (BoM). This book contains two very interesting
doctrines which would become pivotal in later years. First, only one God
in the Godhead (Alma 11:22-35; cf. 1842a, 1844a, c, d.) Second, David’s
and Solomon’s polygamy was an abomination to God (Jacob 2:24-35; cf.
Doctrine &Covenants, 132:38-39). (See 1838c cross dates.)

(b) April 6, church founded – Name: The Church of Christ (David
Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 73). (See 1834b,
1838d.)

1832 (a) First Vision account recorded for the first time. Joseph
Smith says he was “in the 16th year of my age,” and “I saw the Lord …
(who) was crucifyed for the world.” No mention of the Father (Joseph
Smith’s 1832 Diary). (See 1820 cross-dates.)

(b) Joseph Smith gives prophecy of temple to be built at
Independence, in Jackson County, Missouri. “A revelation of Jesus Christ
unto his servant Joseph Smith … to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall
be the city of New Jerusalem … in the western boundaries of the State of
Missouri … beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which
temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation
shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord…”
(D&C, 84:1-5) This proved to be a false prophecy (see 1833b, 1871,
1996b).

1833 (a) First 65 revelations printed in Book of Commandments. (See 1835c.)

(b) Mormons are driven out of Jackson County, Missouri. (See 1832b, 1871, 1996b).

1834 (a) Lectures on Faith first published for “School of the Elders” (Church News, 7 January, 1989, p. 4). (See 1835c, 1842a.)

(b) Name of church changed to “The Church of the Latter Day Saints”
(Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 73). (See 1830,
1838d.)

(c) February 24, Smith receives revelation explaining persecution of
Mormons in Jackson County, Missouri, wherein Independence, and the
appointed temple lot are located. They are promised, “I have decreed a
decree which my people shall realize, inasmuch as they hearken from this
very hour unto the counsel which I, the Lord their God, shall give unto
them. Behold they shall, for I have decreed it, begin to prevail
against mine enemies from this very hour. And by hearkening to observe
all the words which I, the Lord their God, shall speak unto them, they
shall never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of the world are subdued
under my feet, and the earth is given to the saints, to possess it
forever” (Doctrine and Covenants, 103:5-7). This, too, proved to be a
false prophecy (see 1841). (See also 1838b, 1839b, 1840a.)

(d) New First Vision information on Joseph Smith’s age. “I shall,
therefore, pass over that, till I come to the 15th year of his life”
(Messenger and Advocate, Dec. 1834, Vol. 1, p. 42). (See 1820
cross-dates.)

1835 (a) New First Vision information on Smith’s age in Mormon
newspaper, Messenger and Advocate. “You will recollect that I mentioned
the time of a religious excitement, in Palmyra and vicinity to have been
in the 15th year of our brother J. Smith Jr.’s, age – that was an error
in type – it should have been in the 17th” (Ibid., Feb. 1835, Vol. 1,
p. 76). (See 1820 cross dates.)

(b) New First Vision account. Joseph Smith writes in his diary, “…a
personage appeared in the midst of this pillar of flame…another
personage soon appeared like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins
are forgiven thee, he testifyed unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of
God; and I saw many angels in this vision when I was about 14 years old
when I received this first communication” (1835 Diary, Nov. 9). (See
1820 cross dates.)

(c) The Doctrine &Covenants, containing the Lectures on Faith
(see 1842a) and the purported revelations of Joseph Smith up to this
date, is published. This is a major revision of the Book of
Commandments. Hundreds of words are changed from the original
revelations (see 1833a). A new section on marriage (101), contains:
“Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of
fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man
should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case
of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. (See 1838c
cross-dates.)

(d) Church purchases Egyptian papyrus manuscripts from Michael H.
Chandler. Joseph Smith claims to translate them by revelation, says they
were actually written by Abraham of the Bible (making them thousands of
years older than any extant manuscript of the Bible). Carbon-14 and
most of the sophisticated dating methods known to modern science are
still unknown. Study of ancient Egyptian language is an infant science
and Joseph has no contemporaries who can disprove his translation. (See
1851, 1912b, 1966a, 1967.)

1836 First Mormon Temple is built in Kirtland, Ohio. Joseph Smith
would later claim to see Jesus, Moses, Elijah and Elias in this temple
(Deseret News Church Almanac, 1979, p. 47).

1838 (a) April 17, Joseph Smith receives revelation to send David W.
Patton on a mission “next spring” (1839) “in company with” other Mormon
Twelve Apostles (D&C,;sec. 114; see also sec. 118). However, in
October David W. Patton is shot and killed in mob action (History of the
Church, Vol. 3, p. 171). (See 1839a.)

(b) April 26, Smith receives another revelation, wherein the people
are commanded to “build a house” unto the Lord at Far West, Missouri.
They were to “recommence laying the foundation of my house” one year
later, 26 April, 1839, and were to “labor diligently” on it “from that
time forth…until it shall be finished, from the cornerstone thereof unto
the top thereof, until there shall not anything remain that is not
finished” (D&C,115:8-12). (See 1839b, 1840a, 1841, 1996b.)

(c) Church publicly denies belief in polygamy. In questions and
answers prepared for and printed in The Elder’s Journal, Joseph Smith
writes: Q: “Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one?” A:
“No, not at the same time” (History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 28). (See
1829, 1835c, 1838c, 1843b, 1844b, c, 1852b, 1853, 1854c, 1855b, 1856c,
1866b, c, 1876, 1879b, 1887a, 1890a, b, 1898b, 1906, 1963.)

(d) Name of the Church changes again. “For thus shall my church be
called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints” (D&C,115:4). (See 1830, 1834b.)

(e) July 4, In a carefully prepared speech approved by Joseph Smith,
Sidney Rigdon declares, “…that mob that comes on us to disturb us, it
shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow
them until the last drop of their blood is spilled; or else they will
have to exterminate us,…one party or the other shall be utterly
destroyed” (Comprehensive History of the Church, Vol. 1, p. 441). (See
1838f, 1840a.)

(f) October 27, Missouri Governor Lilburn Boggs issues orders to
militia Major-General John Clark, “…The Mormons must be treated as
enemies, and must be exterminated, or driven from the state, if
necessary for the public peace” (Document 61, LDS church Historical
Department, quoted in Richard Van Wagoner, Sidney Rigdon, A Portrait of
Religious Excess, p. 236). (See 1838e, 1840a).

1839 (a) Sometime between midnight and dawn of April 26, seven Mormon
Apostles (two of them ordained on the spot) “officially” take their
leave of “the saints” – eighteen of them present – for their mission to
England. However, their vain attempt to fulfill Joseph Smith’s
prophecies of the previous year fails. David W. Patton is dead and
unable to go with them as called and prophesied. Neither is there a full
Quorum of Twelve in existence at the time, able to depart “in company
with” each other as prophesied. Two of those in the Quorum at this time
are temporarily dropped from it just eight days later. And not even all
of the seven present actually go on their mission “over the waters.” Of
those who do, none leaves that spring as prophesied, but not until late
August and September following. Frequently touted by Mormons as a
“fulfilled prophecy,” this “event” is in fact a complete failure
(History of the Church, Vol. 3, pp. 336-39; Comprehensive History of the
Church, Vol. 1, pp. 531-32; Vol. 2, pp. 22-24; Deseret News 1993-1994
Church Almanac, pp. 44, 46, 47, 52-54). (See 1838a.)

(b) Another cornerstone of the “Lord’s House” in Far West is laid in
an attempt to also fulfill Doctrine &Covenants section 115 (see
1838b). However, this also fails as the Mormons do not labor diligently
from this time forward to complete the building until it is finished.
They can not. The forced Mormon exodus from Missouri is in full
progress. (See also 1841, 1996b.)

1840 (a)Fully routed from Missouri and settling in Commerce, Illinois, the Mormons rename it, Nauvoo.

(b) New First Vision information. “You will recollect that I informed
you, in my letter published in the first No. of the Messenger and
Advocate, that this history would necessarily embrace the life and
character of our esteemed friend and brother J. Smith…I shall,
therefore, pass over that, till I come to the thirteenth year of this
life” (Times and Seasons, Dec. 1, 1840, p. 1). (See 1820 cross-dates.)

(c) Lorenzo Snow, who will become fifth prophet of the Mormon Church,
receives the following “revelation” according to his own words. “As man
now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” This is explicitly
confirmed by Joseph Smith in 1843 (Ensign, Feb. 1982, pp. 39-40).

1841 January 19: in a revelation requiring the saints to build both a
boarding house and a temple in Nauvoo, Smith finds it necessary to
allay concerns over previous failed prophecies and commands to build
temples (see 1832b, 1833b, 1838b, 1839b). “Verily, verily, I say unto
you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a
work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and
with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence,
and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that
work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands
of those sons of men, but to accept their offering….Therefore, for this
cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build
up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and
were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God” (D&C,
124:49, 51). By thus acknowledging both their diligence to obey and
their failure to succeed due to their enemies, Smith inadvertantly
contradicts promise of revelation given seven years previous (see
1834c), that if the saints diligently obeyed they would from that time
forth always prevail over their enemies.

1842 (a) Section 130 is added to the Doctrine &Covenants, in
which God the Father is declared to have “a body of flesh and bones as
tangible as man’s,” and the Holy Spirit is said to be “a personage of
Spirit.” Official First Vision account also finally published. This is
the account found today in the Mormon Scripture, The Pearl of Great
Price, in which God the Father and Jesus appear to Joseph Smith in
separate physical bodies. (See 1820 cross-dates.) These two additions
conflict with former teachings contained in the Lectures on Faith, which
from 1835 have been the “Doctrine” part of the Mormon scripture,
Doctrine &Covenants (see Preface, “Lecture First” and “Section 1,”
D&C,;1835 ed.). The Lectures on Faith describe not the Holy Ghost,
but God the Father as a “personage of spirit.” They call the Holy Ghost
the Holy Spirit, and include the Holy Spirit in the Godhead. However
there are only two personages in the Godhead, the Father and the Son
(cf. 1829, 1844a, d). The Holy Spirit is described as merely the mind
shared by the Father and the Son (N.B. Lundwall, comp., Lectures on
Faith, Lec. 5, pp. 48-53). Publication of all these conflicting
teachings together in the same volume of scripture for many years (see
1921) inevitably leads to unbiblical Momon distinction between Holy
Spirit and Holy Ghost.

(b) August 20, Orson Pratt, one of the original Twelve Mormon
Apostles, is excommunicated for apparent disagreements with Joseph Smith
over polygamy and Smith’s sexual advances to Sarah Pratt, Orson’s wife
(Nauvoo: Kingdom on the Mississippi, pp. 269-70).

1843 (a) Orson Pratt reinstated January 20 as member of the Twelve
Apostles (Deseret News Church Almanac, 1979, p. 104) (See 1842b and
1875.)

(b) Revelation recorded July 12, 1843, authorizes eternal, plural
marriage. As noted in current editions of the Doctrine &Covenants,
“it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and
principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet
since 1831.” That is, historical records show Joseph Smith was sexually
involved with women other than his legal wife Emma, long before this
revelation is written, despite published denials. (See 1835c, 1838c,
1844b.) Revelation makes eternal and plural marriage essential to
exaltation (see 1852b, 1855b, 1866b). It is also called an “everlasting
covenant,” leading later Mormon prophets and apostles to frequently
claim its practice was protected by God and could never be stopped (see
1856c, 1866c, 1879b). (See also 1829, 1844c, 1876, 1887a, 1890a, b,
1898b, 1906.)

1844 (a) In April, Joseph Smith preaches perhaps his most famous
sermon. “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and
sits enthroned in yonder heavens!…I am going to tell you how God came to
be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all
eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil so that you
may see…He was once a man like us; yea that God himself, the Father of
us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did…Here,
then is eternal life…you have got learn how to be Gods yourselves,…the
same as all Gods have done before you” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph
Smith, pp. 345-46). (See 1829, 1842a, 1844c, d.)

(b) May 26, Smith again denies polygamy: “What a thing it is for a
man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I
can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen
years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers” (History of the Church,
Vol. 6, p. 411). (See 1838c cross-dates.)

(c) June 7, first and only copy of the Nauvoo Expositor published.
Accuses Smith of practicing polygamy and teaching polytheism. (See 1838c
cross-dates.)

(d) June 16, Joseph Smith preaches on the plurality of Gods: “I have
always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate
and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a
distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three
distinct personages and three Gods” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p.
474) (See 1829, 1842a, 1844a.)

(e) June 27, mob attacks jail in Carthage, Illinois, where Joseph
Smith and others are being held on charges of treason. Overwhelmed in an
obviously unfairly matched gunfight, Joseph Smith nevertheless kills
two men and wounds a third with a small pistol previously smuggled into
the prison. Both Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum are killed (History
of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 103). The mob’s action is inexcusable. But
fighting for his life with an illegally obtained weapon, Joseph cannot
legitimately be called a martyr in the sense with which that word has
been applied down through the centuries to Christian martyrs who were
willing to suffer death for their faith.

(f) Several splinter groups break off from main group in Nauvoo
during the next few years (see Shields, Divergent Paths of the
Restoration).

1845 Brigham Young, who will become the second Mormon prophet, seems
to teach against Blood Atonement. “When men have come into our midst who
were as corrupt as the devil himself, many have supposed it would have
been better to have cut their throats with a feather and exposed their
sins of corruption, and let them go to hell where they belonged, than to
have borne with them as Brother Joseph Smith did; but this course would
meet with a conflicting argument” (History of the Church, Vol. 7, p.
366). (See 1856a, 1977a.)

1846 (a) Nauvoo Temple dedicated.

(b) The Oath of Vengeance is implemented into the Temple ceremony.
This is an oath against the killers of Joseph Smith (Diary Journal of
Abraham H. Cannon; as quoted in Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality?,
p. 475). (See 1926.)

(c) Brigham Young guides the majority of the people left in Nauvoo in
move to Utah (Nauvoo: Kingdom on the Mississippi, p. 306).

1847 (a) Mormons reach the Salt Lake Valley.

(b) Brigham Young officially becomes the second Prophet of the Mormon church (Deseret News Almanac, 1079, p. 92).

1851 The first edition of the Pearl of Great Price, including the
“Book of Moses” and the “Book of Abraham,” is printed (see 1835d
cross-dates). Moses 7:8 and Abraham 1:21-27 become “scriptural basis”
for denying priesthood to Blacks of African descent (see 1854b
cross-dates).

Shadow, I’m no Mormon. I’m a Christian. I want Mormons to know the truth and therefore there needs to be a distinction between the truth and the Mormon church’s lies. This is why I post. I am no better than they are. I need the same redemption provided in Christ, but the problem is that they have a different Jesus altogether than that of the Scriptures. Therefore they have a false Christ. Therefore they have a false gospel.

Shadow, if you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, then you do not believe in the same God. If you believe that Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan, you do not believe in the same Jesus. If you believe that grace PLUS your works save you, then you do not believe in the same gospel they do. If you believe God has always been eternally God, then you do not believe in the same God. If you deny that God the Father was once a man who became God, then Shadow you do not believe in the same God. Perhaps you put your own definition into the words used. most people don’t even know what to ask and assume Mormons believe the same thing they do. THEY DON”T!

“Throughout the thousands of years between the times of the prophets of
old to the time of Christ, how much of these text were changed?”

Well it would serve you well Shadow to actually present facts here. Reading extensively on religion does nothing to bolster your case.

I would say you need to first get your time frame correct. There was only about 400 years from the last prophet to the time of Christ. Granted there was a much longer period if you took in the other prophets.

With that said you are asking a question as though you have evidence that the text has been changed. I ask you, prove it. There is more evidence that the text has not been significantly altered than any text of antiquity. There are literally thousands of manuscripts or pieces of manuscripts we have today to verify it. This is why when Islam makes a silly claim that the text has been altered, they cannot substaniate it. It’s also why texts found in the past century bolster the claim of Christianity that there were no significant alterations. Yes, there were copyist errors and such, but those are fairly easy to identify because of the evidence of the manuscripts.

You ask me the question, “Throughout the thousands of years between the times of the prophets of
old to the time of Christ, how much of these text were changed? ” I throw it back to you Sir, how much was changed? If you say any were altered to change the message, please provide the evidence, otherwise it again, is an assumption on your behalf without evidence.

” From the time of Christ to this specific time, how much of the Bible as we know it has been changed?”

Well seeing that the Church fathers basically quoted the entire Scriptures, I’m guessing nothing. You could take all the OT and NT quotes of the fathers in the first 4 centuries and comprise the text of Scripture. Again, if you have evidence, let’s see it. Otherwise you are in the same camp as the Muslim who makes assertions with no evidence.

“How much text is still hidden away and or kept from us that are the
actual writtings of the prophets of old or the actual books that should
have been included in the Bible?”

Well again, the OT was taken as the Word of God, because of the scrolls put up in the Temple. those were handed down for generations. This is why several books were discarded from the OT in council, because the Church from the time of their writing through the NT era and beyond did not consider them to be authoritative or divinely inspired.

Also the apostle Paul, if you will notice often quoted from the Septuagint, which is the Greek version of the OT. Again, wasn’t like any of the Scriptures were not known by the people. They were and they were out in the open. As Jesus Himself even declared, that He taught in the open, so was the Word of God.

Peter says God has given us all things for life and godliness. That would be the Scriptures.

I definitely think that Mormonism has serious errors in this regards. Did God really not give His church all of His Word? Did He really wait 1800 years to give them through some gold tablets in a language that was NEVER known and cannot be proven to be a real language (reformed Egyptian)? I don’t think so. But then, I’ve seen Smith’s prophesies. I’ve seen him bring God down to nothing more than a man and bring the glorified Christ as well. I’ve read his false prophecies and his doctrines of demons. I know they are false because they are at odds with Scripture. Thus why I reject them, as did Christians from the early days of Mormonism, recognizing them as a cult and their teachings as heresies.

Not that difficult really shadow. Yes we have many languages. The Word of God was given in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Translation comes from those. Different versions are simply translations of the SAME Scriptures.

What is my evidence the texts have not changed? It’s simple. You don’t question Homer, do you? There are basically two manuscripts over 2000 years apart attributed to Homer. Do you question he is the author? Do you question what was written? Sir there are thousands of manuscripts and thousands more fragments of manuscripts of the OT and NT. There is no doubt about what is written. Now if you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it. Otherwise, you are arguing from silence, which is the worst place to argue from.

” I was born and raised in the Bible Belt and was taught that the King
James Version of The Bible is the full compete version and nothing can
be added or taken away. Now, I challenge you to confrm that to be the
truth, the whole truthand nothing but the truth, so help you God. You
can’t! ”

Nor would I. KJV onlyism is almost cultish and in some cases is cultish in its assesments. Again, the original Scriptures were written in three languages. Those are the infallible Scriptures. I have never said, nor would I say that translations cannot contain error in the translation. that is why it is imperative to study the text in the original tongue. Nice straw man though:)

The point of Mormonism is addition of entire Books! We’re not talking a translation issue. They claim entire new revelations that contradict the OT and NT.

again, try reading what I ACTUALLY said Shadow. I didn’t say the KJV was cultish. I said KJV ONLYISM can be. There is a difference.

“Sorry, but the addition the Mormons study “DO NOT” contradict the KJV of
the Bible. It includes Chapters and Verses that were left out of the
original KJV as we know it.”

Oh really? And you can prove this how? Their texts do contradict Scripture. I just spent an hour writing to a Mormon quoting his own texts and non-prophets to demonstrate that. I have refuted your own claims with Scripture and called you on your assumptions.

You have no golden plates, you don’t even have manuscripts of golden plates. All you have is a deceiver who took 16th century English and wrote it in the 19th century, of which most was plagiarized and easily demonstrated to be so in order to form doctrines of demons.

Blindness? This must be why you imagine people in the land of Nod. Go on then, please quote the text from the Scriptures that tell us there were people in the land of Nod. Let’s see how good your eyes really are:)

1852 (a) Young teaches Adam-God doctrine. “When our father Adam came
into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and
brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize
this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about
whom holy men have written and spoken – He is our Father and our God,
and the only God with whom we have to do” (Journal of Discourses, Vol.
1, p. 50). (See 1854a, 1856b, 1873, 1903, 1912a, 1976, 1981a.)

(b) Polygamy is openly taught in specially convened conference in
Salt Lake City. Revelation dated July 12, 1843, which teaches, even
commands, plural marriage to be practiced, is publicly read, then
expounded on by Apostle Orson Pratt and President Brigham Young (Smith,
Essentials in Church History, p. 394). The revelation is incorporated
twenty-four years later (see 1876) into the Doctrine &Covenants.
(See 1838c cross-dates.)

1853 Mormon apostle and later counselor to Brigham Young in Church’s
First Presidency Jedediah M. Grant quotes with approval pagan
philosopher Celsus, “The grand reason why the gentiles and philosophers
of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was because he had so many wives;
there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed
him.” He goes on to say, “The grand reason of the burst of public
sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing
crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the
testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the
plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We
might almost think they were ‘Mormons’” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1,
p. 345-46; see 1854c, 1963a). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

1854 (a) Orson Pratt vehemently disagrees with Brigham Young
concerning the Adam God doctrine. “But behold ye, there were some that
did not believe the sayings of the Prophet Brigham. Even our beloved
brother Orson Pratt told me that he did not believe it. He said he could
prove by the scriptures that it was not correct. I felt sorry to hear
Professor Orson Pratt say that” (Diary of Joseph Lee Robinson, pp.
102-03 as quoted in Joseph Musser, Michael Our Father and Our God, p. 23
ftnt.). (See 1852a cross-dates.)

(b) Brigham Young speaks on those with a Black skin, the descendants
of Cain, and the priesthood. “When all the other children of Adam have
had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood…and have received their
resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the
curse from Cain and his posterity” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p.
143). (See 1851, 1866a, 1945c, 1954b, 1958, 1978b, c, 1979a, b.)

(c) Orson Hyde, one of the LDS Twelve Apostles, explains the marriage
at Cana found in the biblical account of John 2: “Jesus was the
bridegroom at the marriage of Cana…. Now there was actually a marriage;
and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who
was…. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the
relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was
crucified….[B]efore the Savior died, he looked upon his own natural
children, as we look upon ours;…” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 82;
see 1853, 1963a). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

1855 (a) New First Vision information given by Brigham Young. “The
Lord did not come with the armies of heaven…. But he did send His angel
to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun.,…and informed him that he
should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were
all wrong” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 171). (See 1820
cross-dates.)

(b) Brigham Young preaches a sermon on polygamy in which he explains,
“Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do
so, I promise that you will be damned; and I will go still further and
say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has
given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be
damned” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266). (See 1838c
cross-dates.)

1856 (a) Brigham Young teaches doctrine of Blood Atonement. “There
are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in
this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open
to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have
their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend
to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would
atone for their sins,…. It is true that the blood of the Son of God was
shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet man can
commit sins which it can never remit” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p.
53-54). (See 1845, 1977a.)

(b) Orson Pratt’s disagreement with Brigham Young on Adam-God
continues. “A very serious conversation took place between President B.
Young and Orson Pratt upon doctrine. O.P. was directly opposed to the
President’s view and very freely expressed his entire disbelief in them
after being told by the President that things were so and so in the name
of the Lord. He was firm in the position that the President’s word in
the name of the Lord, was not the word of the Lord to him” (History of
Samuel W. Richards, p. 15; as quoted in Musser, Michael Our Father and
Our God, p. 23 ftnt.). (See 1852a cross dates.)

(c) October 12, in a Sunday afternoon address in the Bowery on Temple
Square, Mormon Apostle Heber C. Kimball declares, “You might as well
deny ‘Mormonism,’ and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of
wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and
all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose
that doctrine, and the whole of them would be damned” (Journal of
Discourses, Vol. 5, p. 203; see 1843b, 1866c, 1879b). (See also 1838c
cross-dates.)

1857 (a) Heber C. Kimball, First Counselor to Brigham Young in the
First Presidency exclaims, “Wake Up, Ye Elders of Israel, and live to
God and none else; and learn to do as you are told, both old and young:
learn to do as you are told for the future. And when you are taking a
position, if you do not know that you are right, do not take it – I mean
independently. But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it.
None of your business whether it is right or wrong” (Journal of
Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 32). (See 1945b.)

(b) Mountain Meadows Massacre. Of the more than 100 people in the
Fancher party passing through Utah, only a few of the children are not
slaughtered. (See 1877a.)

1860 Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
officially organized in Amboy, Iowa. This is the largest of the many
groups into which Joseph Smith’s church has splinterd. Joseph Smith III
is called as their Prophet (Shields, Divergent Paths of the Restoration,
p. 65).

1866 (a) Brigham Young reiterates his stance on the Blacks gaining
the Priesthood. “And when all the rest of the children have received
their blessing in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse shall be removed
from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the
priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to”
(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 272). (See 1854b cross-dates.)

(b) Brigham Young states, “The only men who become Gods, even the
sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy” (Journal of Discourses,
Vol. 11, p. 269; see 1852b, 1855b). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

(c) Heber C. Kimball exclaims, “It would be as easy for the United
States to build a tower to remove the sun, as to remove polygamy, or the
church and kingdom of God” (Millenial Star, Vol. 28, p. 190; see 1843b,
1856c, 1879b). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

1867 Brigham Young publicly ridicules Orson Pratt’s concept of God.
“They appear to be bound in their capacity for acquiring knowledge, as
Brother Orson Pratt, has in theory, bound the capacity of God. According
to his theory, God can progress no further in knowledge and power; but
the God that I serve is progressing eternally, and so are his children”
(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 286).

1870 Brigham Young explains one of the purposes of the sun. “So it is
with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is
inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there?
No question of it; it was not made in vain” (Journal of Discourses, Vol.
13, p. 271).

1871 Orson Pratt, in General Conference, discusses Joseph Smith’s
Independence Temple revelation. “Here then we see a prediction, and we
believe it. Yes! The Latter-day Saints have as firm faith and rely upon
this promise as much as they rely upon the promise of forgiveness of
sins…a temple will be reared on the spot that has been selected, and the
corner-stone of which has been laid, in the generation when this
revelation was given; we just as much expect this as we expect the sun
to rise in the morning…But says the objector, ‘thirty nine years have
passed away.’ What of that? The generation has not passed away; all the
people that were living thirty-nine years ago have not passed away; but
before they do pass away this will be fulfilled” (Journal of Discourses,
Vol. 14, p. 275). (See 1832b, 1996b.)

1873 Despite opposition, Brigham Young continues to teach the
Adam-God doctrine. “How much unbelief exists in the minds of the
Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed
to them, and which God revealed to me – namely that Adam is our Father
and God -…. He was the first man on the earth and its framer and
maker….he said, ‘I want my children who are in the spirit world to come
and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a
mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation….I want
my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come here and
take tabernacles of flesh…’” (Deseret News, June 14, 1873; see
Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, p. 175, for photo-mechanical
reproduction). (See 1852a cross-dates.)

1875 Orson Pratt’s seniority as one of the Twelve Apostles is
stripped from him by Brigham Young. Pratt would have been third prophet
had he retained his status (Deseret News Church Almanac, 1979, p. 104).
(See 1842b, 1843a.)

1876 First edition of Doctrine & Covenants without revelation
prescribing monogamous marriage is published. Section 132 (current
editions) which authorizes polygamy is added (Temple Lot Case, p. 309).
(See 1838c cross-dates.)

1877 (a) March 23, John D. Lee is executed for his part in the
Mountain Meadows Massacre (Confessions of John D. Lee, p. 383) (See
1857b.)

(b) St. George, Utah, temple dedicated.

(c) Brigham Young dies.

1879 (a) New First Vision information given by John Taylor, who will
become the third prophet. “None of them was right, just as it was when
the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right that he
might join it. The answer was that none of them are right….the angel
merely told him to join none of them that none of them were right”
(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20, p. 167; emphasis added). (See 1820
cross-dates.)

(b) Mormon Apostle George Q. Cannon declares, “If plural marriage be
divine, as the Latter-day Saints say it is, no power on earth can
suppress it, unless you crush and destroy the entire people.” At the
October General Conference Apostle Franklin D. Richards declares, “…the
government has determined that polygamy shall be abolished, but the
government of heaven had previously determined that polygamy should be
established…” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20, pp. 276, 314; see 1843b,
1856c, 1866c). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

1880 John Taylor becomes third Mormon prophet.

1884 Logan, Utah, temple is dedicated.

1887 (a) The Edmunds-Tucker Act is passed in Congress. This
legislation “sought to facilitate conviction of polygamists by
permitting exceptions to standard judicial and law enforcement
procedures” (B.Y.U. Studies, Vol. 26, No. 4, p. 117; see 1890a). (See
also 1838c cross-dates.)

(b) Mormon prophet John Taylor dies.

1888 Manti, Utah, temple is dedicated.

1889 Wilford Woodruff becomes fourth Mormon prophet.

1890 (a) “The final blow for Mormon polygamy was the Supreme Court’s
decision in The Late Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ vs.
United States which upheld the seizure of Church holdings by the federal
government” (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol. 21, No. 1, p.
120; see 1887, 1890b). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

(b) Wilford Woodruff issues the Manifesto in which it is stated, “We
are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person
to enter into its practice … Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by
Congress forbidding plural marriages … I hereby declare my intention to
submit to those laws … And I now publicly declare that my advice to the
Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden
by the law of the land” (Doctrine &Covenants, “Official
Declaration-1″, 1981 ed., p. 291-92). Following Joseph Smith’s earlier
example (see 1835c, 1838c, 1844b), Church leaders continued to practice
polygamy for many years after the manifesto, while lying about the
subject to the government, the public and even church members (see
1898b, 1906). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

1893 Salt Lake City, Utah, temple dedicated.

1895 December 9, “At a special conference held at Colonia Juarez,
Chihuahua, Mexico, the settlement of the Saints in Mexico were organized
as the Juarez Stake of Zion by Apostles Francis M. Lyman and George
Teasdale; Anthony W. Ivins, president; Henry Eyring and Helaman Pratt,
counselors” (Jenson, Andrew, Church Chronology, 1899 ed., p. 210). This
community is known for its polygamist activity.

1898 (a) Wilford Woodruff dies. Lorenzo Snow becomes fifth Mormon prophet.

(b) October 17, “The Presbyterian synod of Utah, at its closing
session in Ogden, passed resolutions declaring that polygamy was still
practiced by the ‘Mormons’ in Utah” (Jenson, Church Chronology; see
1890b, 1906). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

1901 Lorenzo Snow dies. Joseph F. Smith becomes sixth Mormon prophet.

1903 Mormon historian and member of the First Council of the Seventy,
B.H. Roberts declares, “Some of the sectarian ministers are saying that
we ‘Mormons’ are ashamed of the doctrine announced by President Brigham
Young to the effect that Adam will thus be the God of this world. No,
friends, it is not that we are ashamed of that doctrine” (The Mormon
Doctrine of Deity, 1903 ed., p. 42). (See 1852a cross-dates.)

1906 The Congressional Committee on Privileges and Elections issues
report on testimony taken in the Reed Smoot Case, stating, “A sufficient
number of specific instances of the taking of plural wives since the
Manifesto of 1890, so called, have been shown by the testimony as having
taken place among Officials of the Mormon Church to demonstrate the
fact that the leaders in this church, the first presidency and the
twelve apostles, connive at the practice of taking plural wives, and
have done so ever since the Manifesto was issued…” (Reed Smoot Case,
Vol. 4, p. 476). There followed a long list of cases, including apostles
of the church, of plural marriages contracted after the Manifesto. (See
1838c cross-dates, esp. 1890b, 1898b.)

1912 (a) In a letter to Central States Mission President Samuel O.
Benion, dated February 20, 1912, the First Presidency officially
renounces Brigham Young’s Adam-God doctrine. Restricting their response
to only one of the many places where Young taught the doctrine, they
attempt to explain the whole thing away as a misunderstanding or
misinterpretation (Messages of the First Presidency, Vol. 4, pp.
266-67). (See 1852a cross-dates.)

(b) Headlines on the December 29 New York Times concerning Joseph
Smith’s “Book of Abraham” (found in the Mormon scripture The Pearl of
Great Price) reads, “Sacred Books Claimed to Have Been Given Divinely to
the First Prophet Are Shown to be Taken from Old Egyptian Originals,
Their Translation Being a Work of Imagination.” (See 1835d cross-dates.)

1916 The Father and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition by the First
Presidency and the Twelve, standardizes Mormon usage of terms Elohim and
Jehovah, applying them to God the Father and God the Son, respectively.
Previously, Jehovah had been used to refer to God the Father by Brigham
Young, John Taylor and others.

Um Shadow, who said anything about polygamy? I said polytheism (that’s believe in many gods). i think you would have some trouble with the founder of Mormonism. However since you brought up the idea of polygamy, maybe you should have a look at Joseph Smith’s wives, even those he married while they were married to other men: http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

This is the founder of Mormonism. Not an offshoot. I’m guessing the LDS church today would reject their own “non-prophet” were he to return today.

Please investigate before posting:)

Shadow, they claim Brigham Young is a prophet speaking for God! did God change his mind on polygamy? Brigham Young, speaking for God, said you are damned if you dismiss it. Joseph Smith taught it. He is their founder. If the founder is then lying on behalf of God, how can you trust anything they say? Again, let me copy and paste what I got from a modern day Mormon friend of mine on the nature of God.

If it’s the same God Shadow I would assume you also consider the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and Doctrines and Covenants to be the Word of God along with the Apocrypha and other books? If not, you are not talking about the same God.

My goodness! If I came into a place and used your name and said I knew you and proceeded to makes statements about you, your character, what you look like and what you do as a job that were false, then those who know you would say I was not talking about the same person no matter how much I claimed I was. Use your head here. Mormonism’s gods are not the same God as the Triune God of Scripture.

So it all comes to this, the nature of God and of Christ is the same now as it was then. Therefore, it is a different god. Second of course they are denouncing polygamy now, which just goes to further show their false prophets. Again, I suggest some discernment here.

“it talks about Adam and Eve’s son being driven from them to live in
another land or another part of the land. it states that he lived among
another group of people in this strange land. Now, my question to you
is, where did these other people come from if Adam, Eve and their
offspring were according to the Bible, the only humans on the face of
the earth at this period in time?”

Correction: The Scriptures NEVER say “it states that he lived among
another group of people in this strange land.” What is said is, ” And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.”

Cain goes to a land and the Scriptures speak of his offspring. It does not say there were people in the land. That is a PRESUPPOSITION you have, but nothing in the text says that. Again, though, just because Adam and Eve are the only ones mentioned does not mean that they did not have other children. they very well must have. Adam lived to be over 900 years old and it’s quite possible that millions of people would have been alive at the time of his death. It’s simple multiplication:) They would have all been family and we are not exactly told how old Cain or Able were at the time of Cain’s departure, so again there is a lot of speculation and presumption on your part without evidence:)

“Let Us create Man in Our Own Likeness”. Now Tim my question, “Who was
the others with God when he stated “Let Us”, who was the Us?”

Well historically it has been understood that this is a reference to the persons of the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each is God. I see no issue with forming man in the image of God in Genesis 1 and then in Genesis 2 pointing to man being formed in the dust.

If you are indicating that God’s “form” is like man or that it is like an angel, then you are mistaken. The Scriptures declare clearly that God is Spirit. That is from Jesus’ own lips. He also said that no man had seen the Father, except the Son. Interestingly enough, God said that no image was to be made or worshipped and served in the second commandment, because there was nothing like unto God. That rules out that the Father appears as we do and it rules out that He appears as any other created thing.

Second, we are told that the Father, the Son and the Spirit were all involved in the creation (Gen :11-2; Jn 1:1; Col 1;16). Angels didn’t make anything. ALL things were made by God (The Father, Son and Holy Spirit). There is no need to guess on these things.

Shadow, once again the text says nothing about people in the land of Nod. It simply mentions that is where he went. His wife is presumably his sister or even possibly a niece. The Scriptures don’t declare that either. It is an assumption, but an assumption based on what we are told.

“According to the Book of Genesis, Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel were the only
humans on earth at that period in time. Cain killed Abel so that left
Adam, Eve, Cain and maybe Cain’s brothers and sisters.”

Do you not even see your own contradiction here? You claim four people on the earth, then maybe brothers and sisters. Are you even familiar with the fact that rarely are the girls mentioned in lineage throughout Genesis? It’s very rare that they are since the line flows through the men in the genealogies.

“Were there other humans created at that time that the Bible does not speak of? Who were these other humans?”

Again pure speculation on your part. Jesus was clear and so was Paul, as well as, Moses, that Adam was the first man. God created him and we are not told of anyone else God created. Eve was taken and fashioned from Adam’s side. From there, it’s all pro-creation.

“Also, while Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden and after they had
eaten from the tree of life. god stated according to the Book of Genesis
that humans had become like them, knowing the difference between good
and evil and destined to live forever.”

Actually he doesn’t say they will live forever. He does reference the fact that they do know the difference now between good and evil. No question there. However, He specifically removes them from the garden so they cannot take of the Tree of Life. In other words, they will face the curse of death which began to work in them from the moment they lusted after the fruit of the forbidden tree.

“Jesus talks concerning Gods Spirit, Jesus never discussed his Fathers
physical appearence. Jesus stated that, “If you have seen me, then you
have seen the Father. For he is in me and I am in him and we are one”.”

Actually Jesus didn’t speak of the Father’s physical appearance because the Father doesn’t have one. Jesus spoke of God the Father and said He was Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and truth. After His resurrection, Jesus told His disciples to touch him to feel Him. He declared He had flesh and bones and then told them a SPIRIT does not have flesh and bones. Jesus answers the question for you, if you would listen to Him.

“Jesus stated that, “If you have seen me, then you have seen the Father. For he is in me and I am in him and we are one”. ”

Again, doctrine of the Trinity. Was Jesus the Father? Is this what you are implying? Was the Father the Son? Of course not. Yet they are One. The doctrine of the Trinity is to affirm there is one being that is God, yet He reveals Himself in three distinct persons, not three gods, but three persons.

“Tim, unless God created other human at the same time he created Adam and
Eve, then when Cain was driven away from Adam and Eve by God to live in
the land of Nod, then Cain took one of his sister with him for a wife,
had intercourse with her and they had children. If Adam, Eve, Cain and
A’ bel were the only humans on planet earth at that period in time,
where did the other humans come from?”

Shadow, your presuppostions are amazing here. We aren’t told. We assume all men came from Adam because that is all the Scripture states. you’ve been corrected on people in the land of Nod. Scripture doesn’t list anyone there. you continue down this road of assumptions without evidence. If you have evidence, fine, present it. Otherwise you are speculating.

Who said they were the only people on the planet? I didn’t say that. That, again is a presupposition you have, but not based in the text.

“Jesus did speak of God’s physical presents. Jesus stated that he would
sit on a throne which is located on the right hand side of the throne of
God. Genesis Chapter 3, Verse 22 states “And the Lord God said, Behold,
the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he
put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and
live for ever:”

Ok this is simply ridiculous. Ever heard of someone being a “right hand man” to someone? Does that imply WHERE they are or WHAT they are? The right hand speaks of a place of honor and authority. Nothing in the text you quoted has anything to do with that and the texts that do speak to the right hand of God do not mention right hand SIDE. Again, it would help to understand how terms are used.

“So, Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden. Cain slew A’bel in
the field and buried his body in the field and according to the Bible,
the only humans on the face of the earth was Adam, Eve, Cain and A’bel.
So Tim, where did the other humans come from? Who was the woman that
Cain took to wife if it was not his own sister by blood? Please
enlighten me as to where the other humans came from.”

Shadow, did you somehow miss what I answered before? BOTH of us speculate where the Bible does not address the matter. However, I stick to what is said and logically follow from there. You enter in all sort of assumptions and distort the text.

I’ll give you an example. Since Moses, Jesus and Paul refer to Adam as the first man, then it logically follows that ALL men came from Adam and Eve, which would then cause us to assume that Cain married a sister or a niece or someone that was in his family. your assumption is something different. You assume people were all over the earth, even in Nod, which the Scriptures don’t teach. You are being illogical here and full of assumptions.

Actually I can Shadow. The fact they claim to speak for God, including their founder and non-prophets indicate they are rejecting the words their founders said were from God. Of course, Mittens would tell you that some in the Mormon church CAN hold to same sex marriage. In fact, though he says one thing, he redefined it by signing into law same-sex marriage. Again, Joseph Smith was it’s founder. Mormonism was unheard of before him. He claims diving revelation and the LDS church is built upon that and upon his assertions that he was a prophet. He was not a prophet, did not receive divine revelation, but was a false prophet and taught doctrines of demons. Plain and simple. Spiritual, yes, but what spirit is behind them? Scriptures teaches us those spirits are demons.

Shadow, actually they do claim to speak for God. They call themselves Prophets, or do you deny this? Try educating yourself on their own site: http://www.lds.org/search?lang=eng&collection=serving-in-the-church&publication=Handbook+2%3A+Administering+the+Church&query=prophets&x=0&y=0

Shadow, btw, Joseph Smith said his message was from the Father and Jesus Christ. That’s a claim of divine revelation, of course it is bogus.

“Tim, did Moses receive his messages from God or from another entity.”

Moses received his messages from God. Ie, the burning bush incident was God. Moses met with God ‘face to face’ is how the Scriptures describe the encounter. God showed him on the mountaintop the heavenly things that he made the earthly tabernacle like.

“Neither one of us were there to witness it, but, we believe it simply
because its stated in the Bible. Christianty was unheard of before
Jesus, but yet, we still believe.”

Of course, what is your point?

“Christianty was unheard of before Jesus, but yet, we still believe.”

Actually that’s entirely false. Christianity was heard from the garden where the proto evangelion was given that Christ would come and crush the serpent’s head. Jesus said ALL of the OT was about Him.

“As for your wording (Mittens), I thought we were discussing the
differences between Mormons an Christians, not Republicans and
Democrats. But, since you brought it up. What your thoughts on the
Democrats booing Jesus and Christians during their convention?”

We were, my apologies. I think at least they are honest, unlike the Republican party. Republicans claim God, but which god? Apparently for their frontrunner they are willing to embrace MANY gods, even a Father god who was once a man like you and I. Why shouldn’t they embrace the Muslim god? or any other god? Both, in my opinion are guilty of idolatry here. The Democrats believe the state is god and the Republicans have a different version of that. They demonstrate it not so much in what they say, as what they actually do.

“For God said, “NO MAN can look upon my face and live”. Tim, Moses never
seen God’s face according to the Old Testament contained within the
Kings James Version of The Holy Bible. mose desired greatly to see Gods
face but, God did not allow it.”

Great, tell that to your Mormon friends then. When I said Moses spoke to God face to face, that is simply how the Scriptures communicate that. So how do I resolve that? I resolve it in the fact that Moses spoke intimately with God. God spoke to him as well. God did not speak to the people of Israel like that. He spoke to them through Moses. See the difference? This preserves the understanding of both the fact that no man could see his face and that Moses spoke face to face to God.

“Garden, Proto Evangelion? Are you referring to the Garden of Eden? If not, please give me some reference to this verbage.’

The proto-evangelion is a reference to the first mention of the Messiah and what he would accomplish when God said that he would crush the head of the serpent and the serpent would bruise His heel.

“Now, outside the Bible. Prove to me that Moses actually spoke with God.
You or no one else can accomplish this. You like me and millions of
others have to go off faith and hope.”

I totally agree, what’s your point?

“We have to have the human desire that what we are being told is the absolute truth through faith.”

Actually faith is a gift of God. It is not something you or I muster up within us. It is a gift of God’s grace that we believe (Eph 2:8; Phil 1:29).

“If the Democrats are God fearing folks, then explain to me why the
leadership of The Democratic Party voted to exclude God from their
convention and when God was mentioned during their convention, the
speaker was booed and shouted down by The Democratic Party.”

LOL that is a silly question for me. I’m no Democrat so I wouldn’t know, but the Scriptures are clear: there are no real atheists. Paul points out all men know there is a God, they just will not honor Him as God, but suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1).

body is a stretch in the interpretation there Shadow. Actually the word that is used there speaks more of his “receeding glory.” In other words the full glory of God would have killed Moses, but God allowed him to see what was left of his glory as he passed by. I mean seriously if you are talking a body here, notice that the text says, “And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.”

So Shadow, by your own logic here, are you saying God has a physical hand as big as Moses? come on guy. You are assuming things that are not in the text.

Yes I’ve read the Book of Mormon and some parts of the other works as well as some of their non-prophets.